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[RebelINS]

his regular slash does more damage than pizza cutter.

[CrazNoDale]

his regular slash does more damage than pizza cutter.

.... Did not know that.

[Killah Zillah]

No. You keep asking for more and more buffs for the samurais without actually thinking about why I should add it. A double jump would be redundant because they can already dash upwards.

I have plans on exactly what to add to them. More mobility options doesn't add anything.

Giving them double jump, or even a high jump like Iji, is easier and more intuitive than having to stop and hold a directional button then press space every single time you wanted to go to a higher level. It works as an, in-the-heat-of-combat means to close gaps, but as a normal means of getting around it's a hassle that's not very fun to put up with. This is why most people don't use Xan's dash to get around everywhere, because it's a pain to have to bend your fingers down onto S and hold it every time you wanted to dash. I myself have never ever used because holding a mostly unused button when 99.5% of the rest of the game requires that you have your fingers on AWD. Suddenly breaking from that is an annoyance when it's supposed to be the most effective means for getting around!

I didn't know you relegated the jump attack to holding S in the air. That's silly because your fingers are now meant to bend into an odd angle each and every time you're passing through an enemy in the air, which is supposed to be your main means of hitting someone when they're dancing and trying to avoid you (which is all the time). Holding the attack button not only allows for smoother combat, but is also easier on the fingers and is easier to take notice of. I know you said you've got your own plan for them, but saying that making them easier to handle isn't helping anything.. that just doesn't make any sense to me. Making them easier to handle simply makes them more fun.

[Dusty]

And that's part of the reason the illusionist is getting his controls changed.

[RebelINS]

They were even shittier when people (usually Craz) would hold M1 and try to run in and pizza slice their way to victory. It's a niche attack for enemies underneath you, spychecking occasionally, and if you suck at hitting your regular slashes because it has a big hitbox.

Making things easier to play is not equivalent to making them better. All of their problems are based around them being melee-only classes in a game filled with ranged classes. Which is hilarious, because I keep on subtly buffing their block hoping that people actually use it, but no one does. I guess no one read the changelog where I added Just Defend...

I'm probably going to switch out the pizza slicer for something else, because I'm not quite satisfied with how it works.

tl;dr - don't complain about classes you aren't even playing correctly.

[Dusty]

blocking is hard though.

[CrazNoDale]

They were even shittier when people (usually Craz) would hold M1 and try to run in and pizza slice their way to victory. It's a niche attack for enemies underneath you, spychecking occasionally, and if you suck at hitting your regular slashes because it has a big hitbox.

Making things easier to play is not equivalent to making them better. All of their problems are based around them being melee-only classes in a game filled with ranged classes. Which is hilarious, because I keep on subtly buffing their block hoping that people actually use it, but no one does. I guess no one read the changelog where I added Just Defend...

I'm probably going to switch out the pizza slicer for something else, because I'm not quite satisfied with how it works.

tl;dr - don't complain about classes you aren't even playing correctly.

Thats what makes the class fun. And pizza slice their way to victory? You mean Pizza slice their way to death and barely do any damage at all.

[Killah Zillah]

They were even shittier when people (usually Craz) would hold M1 and try to run in and pizza slice their way to victory. It's a niche attack for enemies underneath you, spychecking occasionally, and if you suck at hitting your regular slashes because it has a big hitbox.

Making things easier to play is not equivalent to making them better. All of their problems are based around them being melee-only classes in a game filled with ranged classes. Which is hilarious, because I keep on subtly buffing their block hoping that people actually use it, but no one does. I guess no one read the changelog where I added Just Defend...

I'm probably going to switch out the pizza slicer for something else, because I'm not quite satisfied with how it works.

tl;dr - don't complain about classes you aren't even playing correctly.

Making them easier to play directly influences how fun they are. I could list a thousand games that had unfun or overly complicated controls that were an absolute nightmare to play and failed exactly and solely because of their controls. The controls have to be easy to get into or they'll go unused. If they're overly complicated, most people won't have fun playing them. If their abilities aren't immediately apparent and easy to work with, most people simply won't use those abilities. Again, this is why hardly anyone uses Xan's dash, or as Dusty mentioned, the Illusionists special abilities. As for why people would slice their way to victory, it's because most enemies are jumping and hopping around you so they DON'T allow you to use the normal attack, so you can't just sit still on the ground and hope they'll stay still long enough for that to work. The normal attack works best against slow, large targets like Sani and Vein, but it's hard to do even that because you're fighting normal people who're aiming their guns at you. Jumping around them makes it harder for them to keep a solid aim on you, as we both know.

If you want to make the slicer less used, nerf it in a way that you can SEE! You could try making the slicer only spin twice rather than purpetually, which would force you to use a normal attack the moment you land! That would satisfy both sides, where the controls are more fluent while also forcing you to use the more powerful standing attack as well.

As for blocking, slowing the player that much for a class that COOOONSTANTLY has to close gaps makes people feel like it's not really worth it and would rather dance and bumrush as fast as they can. Even if it really is the most effective means of defence, you can't blame people for going with what feels the easiest and most effective. Refer to the Xan and Illusionist examples. Given time, maybe they'll learn to use it, but at the moment it just doesn't feel very fun or useful. You said you've got plans for them, so I can't argue against how useful blocking really is, all I can say is why I believe people aren't using it. What I CAN argue is how useful an easily accessible mid-air attack is, and how making things easier to understand makes them more fun!

[Dusty]

God damnit I want to do so much with the illusionist but I know it would be too much. The Illusionist is supposed to be a protagonist to a game, so transfering him to a balanced team based game is annoying at times, because if I put in more of his abilities, he would be either overpowered or too complicated. I think the most abilities any class has is 4, maybe 5.

[Mew!]

Hosting.

[CrazNoDale]

Hosting.

Beware of errors

[RebelINS]

Your appraisal of Xan's dash ability is wrong. Any good player playing him knows how and when to use his dash. It's easy and pretty intuitive to use on the Space Bar.

I appreciate the concern, but I'm not about to make kneejerk buffs based on what people perceive as a more "fun" or "easy" way to play the class.

The fun/easy way to play would be to rush in with dashes and try to hit them. If I added buffs based around that playstyle, they'd have more hp, more defense, or could dash more often. I'm sure you'd all love that, but that sucks all the skill out of the class. For me, fun isn't about how easy the class is to play, but it is how the class's skills scale to your own skills. The ceiling for a braindead version of the Samurais (ie. the first iteration where the pizza slicer did high damage and had hitstun), is hold m1 and dash. I want the ceiling for the class to be more mobility, strategy and timing based.

If you haven't noticed, they already have good mobility and defensive options. You can approach from different angles, you can dash and block, block then dash, etc. They can catch up to and approach classes from angles they can't attack you at. Blocking projectiles makes you take 25% of that damage, and Just Defending it means you take a whopping 0 damage.

Part of this post was removed.

[CrazNoDale]

Your appraisal of Xan's dash ability is wrong. Any good player playing him knows how and when to use his dash. It's easy and pretty intuitive to use on the Space Bar.

I appreciate the concern, but I'm not about to make kneejerk buffs based on what people perceive as a more "fun" or "easy" way to play the class.

The fun/easy way to play would be to rush in with dashes and try to hit them. If I added buffs based around that playstyle, they'd have more hp, more defense, or could dash more often. I'm sure you'd all love that, but that sucks all the skill out of the class. For me, fun isn't about how easy the class is to play, but it is how the class's skills scale to your own skills. The ceiling for a braindead version of the Samurais (ie. the first iteration where the pizza slicer did retardedly high damage and had hitstun), is hold m1 and dash. I want the ceiling for the class to be more mobility, strategy and timing based.

If you haven't noticed, they already have good mobility and defensive options. You can approach from different angles, you can dash and block, block then dash, etc. They can catch up to and approach classes from angles they can't attack you at. Blocking projectiles makes you take 25% of that damage, and Just Defending it means you take a whopping 0 damage.

High damage? I thought it was like 30dps, but okay. Also whats the point in that when you don't even get a chance to hit them

[RebelINS]

You don't even know what you're talking about. The first version of the pizza slicer had a hitstun + hitbox overlap that caused enemies to get stuck inside indefinitely. It was a touch of death kill against anyone you hit.

You guys need to be stop being so salty about a class that is incomplete because you're playing them in a way that is ineffective. ffs, either wait until they're complete, or try using their block before making generalizations about how underpowered they are.

[Dusty]

Hm, should the lifelink be able to borrow ubers too? you'd have to latch on before the uber is popped though.