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Author Topic: Clearshot Plugin v1.0  (Read 6785 times)

Dusty

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2013, 04:48:18 pm »

I've found it to be quite desirable, more so than damage indicators.
And it still gives me info I could know anyways, but takes the guesswork out of it.
Just like damage indicators take out the guesswork of how much damage you've done.

Phantom Brave

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2013, 05:18:01 pm »

Of course it's desirable. It is gamebreaking to have after all.

I specifically have things like this in mind as a cheat and have said so multiple times before.
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Machidro

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2013, 05:24:21 pm »

Its interesting that when it's your plugin giving "desirable" information, it's fine; when it's someone else's, it's a cheat.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:24:45 pm by Machidro »
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Dusty

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2013, 05:25:25 pm »

How is it game breaking?
It shows the following things:
Radii of sentries, when they are on screen
Radii of rockets, when they are on screen
Radii of stickies, when they are on screen
The min/max spread of your weapon
Whether there is an obstacle between you and what you're aiming at (And I mean obstacle, players do not count in this case)
And the paths of bullets, when they are on screen

All of this you can interpolate yourself, just as you can with the amount of damage you are dealing.
This just makes it easier and allows you to focus on the game.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:26:35 pm by Dusty »
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Phantom Brave

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2013, 05:33:02 pm »

Tell me a quakelike shooter that doesn't have a damage indicator.

Tell me a quakelike shooter that shows the radiuses of hazards.
Tell me a quakelike shooter that shows what your shots will hit if you shoot at this moment. (I'm aware of the plugin thread we're in right now, just going with this list; there's a line you crossed this didn't)
Tell me a quakelike shooter that shows what path some projectile will take.
Tell me a quakelike shooter that makes it easier for you to interpret metadata about what is shown on screen, rather than just its location (thanks, fullbright!).

These games are balanced around how hard or easy they make certain things to understand. Adding radiuses to everything with some form of AoE not only breaks this, but makes it so that you can be aware of them in situations where there's no way you would be able to otherwise.

The only legitimate thing you listed is the weapon spread.

Machidro: I didn't make damage indicator, nor does your comparison hold any water in the first place.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:35:58 pm by Phantom Brave »
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Dusty

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2013, 05:39:37 pm »

Tell me a quakelike shooter that doesn't have a damage indicator.

Tell me a quakelike shooter that shows the radiuses of hazards.
Tell me a quakelike shooter that shows what your shots will hit if you shoot at this moment.
Tell me a quakelike shooter that shows what path some projectile will take.
Tell me a quakelike shooter that makes it easier for you to interpret metadata about what is shown on screen, rather than just its location (thanks, fullbright!).

These games are balanced around how hard or easy they make certain things to understand. Adding radiuses to everything with some form of AoE not only breaks this, but makes it so that you can be aware of them in situations where there's no way you would be able to otherwise.

The only legitimate thing you listed is the weapon spread.
It's never telling you where your shots will hit at any moment until you've fired, at which point they are out of your control anyways.
There is no point in time that I give info to a player when they couldn't see an object to begin with, I believe the only exception I made to this is your own sentry as an engineer, since it is a static point.

Tell me how knowing when you hit someone offscreen via a ding-a-ling and knowing that you removed almost half their health is more 'okay'?

Machidro

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2013, 05:42:02 pm »

Why would he have to do any of the above anyways? This isn't a quakelike shooter, it's a slow paced, third person 2D class based shooter.
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Phantom Brave

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2013, 05:48:08 pm »

>It's never telling you where your shots will hit at any moment until you've fired, at which point they are out of your control anyways.

This is still something which aids other judgment which someone would have to intuit themselves in order to be able to make that other judgment. Oh, shit, my last shot's not going to hit! I better book it!

>There is no point in time that I give info to a player when they couldn't see an object to begin with, I believe the only exception I made to this is your own sentry as an engineer, since it is a static point.

There is no way for me to have known this, and regardless the main point still stands: you *are* directly showing things to people which they wouldn't otherwise be shown, which they would have to track on their own normally, etc. It's just like showing offscreen players. You can assume they're there, but you have to make judgments about it, like where what players are going to be. They follow patterns just like how the radiuses are consistent. It's just like making a plugin that shows you where a cloaked spy could have gone after they became fully invisible. Who needs judgment for how far away in what distances they could've gone and how likely they are to be in different places? It's mathematically determined, so it's totally okay to show! /s

>Tell me how knowing when you hit someone offscreen via a ding-a-ling and knowing that you removed almost half their health is more 'okay'?

For one, there's no way to tell how much damage you did via dingaling. For two, there's no way to tell *where* offscreen you hit someone. For three, it's something entirely of your own effort and this behavior is consistent with TF2 and Quake and many many others. Just because it's "better" than vanilla doesn't mean it's not okay, because it's something that we want in vanilla in the first place but haven't done because we can't do it *properly*. It's entirely intended behavior.


>Why would he have to do any of the above anyways? This isn't a quakelike shooter, it's a slow paced, third person 2D class based shooter.

You clearly haven't played QW:TF, because it's a slow paced class based shooter. The fact that it's third person and 2d is irrelevant to the information and gameplay style context. I would argue that GG2 is more like Quake than TF2 is because of how heavily vertical the map design is.


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« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:55:34 pm by Phantom Brave »
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bullets (obviously)

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2013, 07:07:59 pm »

In order of how much they give you an advantage that players without the plugin lack. Isn't this the definition of gamebreaking/cheating?

Sentry radius for opponents: You can see upcoming sentries without actually getting in range and taking some damage. Not something you can predict consistently unless playing ctf/koth. This doesn't even give you the blind spot though.

Damage indicator as sniper: You know exactly how much damage you've done and therefore the maximum amount of health they can have. You can choose between unscoping, quickscoping, charging, etc. You can't tell the difference between, lets say 140-70 = 35+35 to kill and 140-69 = 35+35+35, but dmg indicator can. You can tell you hit someone offscreen and how much damage you did.

Damage indicator as any other class: Its not too accurate with lag but lets you estimate enemy health much more accurately, especially when fighting multiple enemies. Also gives you exact splash damage, which is much better than what you can judge in vanilla or with the shitty splash damage indicator.

That blast radius indicator: completely useless to the soldier. Useful to the victim if you can't see rockets for some reason. Also lets you see them about a millisecond earlier. Guaranteed to clog up the screen when you meet a few pub spammers. And outside a few pixels from the explosion the damage dealt would be insignificant. Why you would use this I have no idea.

Scattergun sightline: Neither accurate nor useful. Not worth the time spent coding it.

Quote
Tell me a quakelike shooter that shows the radiuses of hazards. I would hope that explosions are accurately drawn show the extent of their damage, but that seems to be ignored in gg2.
Tell me a quakelike shooter that shows what your shots will hit if you shoot at this moment. You mean... the cursor? Not perfectly accurate, but certainly more so than the imaginary line you have to draw between your cursor and character in gg2

Anyway, "tf2 quake has it" is not an argument for inclusion in gg2 no matter how balanced quake is, as you have said yourself so many times. I certainly agree that damage indicator is fine in gg2, but nobody cares about any visual hacks short of spyhacks and maybe enemy snipelines. This one is little more than a shitty spritemod.

Question: If I make a spritemod where the sniper rifle is a 2000px penis, does that count as a hack?


Also, no snark intended, I'm tired and simultaneously redditing.
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Saniblues

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2013, 08:26:54 pm »

It all depends on whether the rifle is flaccid or not.
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Dusty

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2013, 09:12:56 pm »

Sentry radii and all other bullet paths and other radii ro not show in my plugin unless they are on screen with you, never before.
Aside from if it's your own sentry, that is.

As for this now that I'm not at work:
>It's never telling you where your shots will hit at any moment until you've fired, at which point they are out of your control anyways.

This is still something which aids other judgment which someone would have to intuit themselves in order to be able to make that other judgment. Oh, shit, my last shot's not going to hit! I better book it!
Oh no, it shows you a second at best ahead which you could already interpret to begin with.
In fact, even before I fire a shot, I can pretty decently tell whether or not a shot will hit now, at least from the scattergun, this merely sped up that learning process for me.

>There is no point in time that I give info to a player when they couldn't see an object to begin with, I believe the only exception I made to this is your own sentry as an engineer, since it is a static point.

There is no way for me to have known this, and regardless the main point still stands: you *are* directly showing things to people which they wouldn't otherwise be shown, which they would have to track on their own normally, etc. It's just like showing offscreen players. You can assume they're there, but you have to make judgments about it, like where what players are going to be. They follow patterns just like how the radiuses are consistent. It's just like making a plugin that shows you where a cloaked spy could have gone after they became fully invisible. Who needs judgment for how far away in what distances they could've gone and how likely they are to be in different places? It's mathematically determined, so it's totally okay to show! /s
A damage indicator directly shows you how much damage you have dealt, which otherwise wouldn't have been shown, which they would've had to track on their own normally, ect. And you still have to make judgements even with all this revealed info, at no point does the plugin take over and say "Hey you need to jump NOW, lemme do that for you." Sentries are still difficult to take down if they are well placed, and rockets, bullets, ect. can still be difficult to dodge if they're well aimed.

>Tell me how knowing when you hit someone offscreen via a ding-a-ling and knowing that you removed almost half their health is more 'okay'?

For one, there's no way to tell how much damage you did via dingaling. For two, there's no way to tell *where* offscreen you hit someone. For three, it's something entirely of your own effort and this behavior is consistent with TF2 and Quake and many many others. Just because it's "better" than vanilla doesn't mean it's not okay, because it's something that we want in vanilla in the first place but haven't done because we can't do it *properly*. It's entirely intended behavior.
On point two: There are two kinds of shots you can make, a straight shot for 3/10 classes, or an arced shot for the rest. Assuming you know anything about your class's range and bullet arc, you know where someone was when they got hit. The only one you can't know as easily is the sniper's shot, due to the fact that it's instantaneous.
On point three: Dodging, again, is still entirely of your own effort, just as aiming that shot was. That is if you even aimed the shot and didn't just get lucky with a missed rocket.
And it's god damn easier to make a hit indicator in GG2's source compared to making a plugin for it, so don't give me that "we can't do it properly", no one's just gotten up and done it.

How is it game breaking?
It shows the following things:
Radii of sentries, when they are on screen
Radii of rockets, when they are on screen
Radii of stickies, when they are on screen
The min/max spread of your weapon
Whether there is an obstacle between you and what you're aiming at (And I mean obstacle, players do not count in this case)
And the paths of bullets, when they are on screen

All of this you can interpolate yourself, just as you can with the amount of damage you are dealing.
This just makes it easier and allows you to focus on the game.
this is like wallhacks for a 2d sidescroller
Incorrect, wallhacks give you information you couldn't possibly ever know until you went around that wall, but the information still needs to be sent to your computer so that way there's no de-sync or other such happenings.
This gives you information you roughly learn normally, and allows you to fine tune that information to a point, rather than a hazy "I think I'm out of range"

Sentry radius for opponents: You can see upcoming sentries without actually getting in range and taking some damage. Not something you can predict consistently unless playing ctf/koth. This doesn't even give you the blind spot though.
Incorrect. The sentry radius is actually slightly smaller than the size of the screen, so even when a sentry is on screen and has a clear line of sight to you, it is not guaranteed to be shooting at you, it just probably is because you ran into it. And as I've said for the third time now, as long as the sentry is off-screen you can NOT see it's radius UNLESS it's your own sentry.

That blast radius indicator: completely useless to the soldier. Useful to the victim if you can't see rockets for some reason. Also lets you see them about a millisecond earlier. Guaranteed to clog up the screen when you meet a few pub spammers. And outside a few pixels from the explosion the damage dealt would be insignificant. Why you would use this I have no idea.
Personally, disagree to the first part, and here's why: If a soldier knows the splash radius on their rocket, they know roughly how much they can "miss" by and still deal some damage.
As for the second part, it is a bit of an information overload when multiple soldiers, sentries, and bullets are flying. I have no problem with it however.

Scattergun sightline: Neither accurate nor useful. Not worth the time spent coding it.
I need to modify it to account for your momentum, would likely become more helpful then.

Question: If I make a spritemod where the sniper rifle is a 2000px penis, does that count as a hack?
Personally, I say yes, because then it would (likely) extend 2.5 screen-lengths, when you can only see a sniper from one screen-length, or two if you are a scoped sniper yourself.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 04:02:57 am by Dusty »
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GG2RBY

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2013, 03:55:27 am »

Dusty, I would see that plugin you posted as cheap and unfair/hacks

Just saying
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 03:55:37 am by RBY »
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Phantom Brave

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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2013, 06:46:03 am »

>Isn't this the definition of gamebreaking/cheating?

Not necessarilly. Things that are gamebreaking/cheating are things that give a player tools with which to play the game well that the game is designed around *not* having. GG2 is not designed around not having a damage indicator. GG2 *is* designed around not showing radiuses for these sorts of things, where your projectiles are going, etc. Your whole rating of these things is wrong.

>Anyway, "tf2 quake has it" is not an argument for inclusion in gg2 no matter how balanced quake is, as you have said yourself so many times.

If you're really making an argument *against* the inclusion and use of damage indicators in GG2, I don't know what to think about that.

>nobody cares about any visual hacks short of spyhacks and maybe enemy snipelines. This one is little more than a shitty spritemod.

Oh. Well in that case I'll pick up my phone and ask BassMakesPaste to update Love, Kisses, and Anal Sex for everone. Free yourselves of the need to make any kind of non-strategic judgment, everyone! Bullets showed us the way, nobody really cares about what effects being able to plainly see things which you normally have to think about and the game is expressly designed around not being obvious has on the game!

>Question: If I make a spritemod where the sniper rifle is a 2000px penis, does that count as a hack?

Yeah, the larger a sprite like that is the easier it is to see from off screen. It's nowhere near as big of a deal as showing the sentry radius though.

>Oh no, it shows you a second at best ahead which you could already interpret to begin with.
>In fact, even before I fire a shot, I can pretty decently tell whether or not a shot will hit now, at least from the scattergun, this merely sped up that learning process for me.

Alright.

>A damage indicator directly shows you how much damage you have dealt, which otherwise wouldn't have been shown, which they would've had to track on their own normally, ect. And you still have to make judgements even with all this revealed info, at no point does the plugin take over and say "Hey you need to jump NOW, lemme do that for you." Sentries are still difficult to take down if they are well placed, and rockets, bullets, ect. can still be difficult to dodge if they're well aimed.

Fun fact: there's a small group of TF2 players who consider *anything* custom to be a cheat. Even if Valve specifically went out of their way to make it customizable at all times regardless of the server's "purity" settings. They think custom HUDs are cheating because they make the HUD easier to read than the default one. They think that the damage indicator is bullshit because it wasn't added to the game for a long time. Nevermind the fact that two of the very best players in the game don't use a custom HUD at all (among many other great ones), and . This argument goes all the way into hardware. Better mouse than the person you're fighting? Unfair advantage! Give me a fucking break.

The point of my argument about showing information is a basic guideline for whether or not something is a cheat. It's not the ultimate form of it. You honestly just seem stubborn that what you're doing is not cheating despite the fact that I'm telling you it's something not fit for the game whatsoever. Just because I used words like quakelike and information to put context into my statements, and you guys have some kind of problem with thoes words, doesn't change that. This shit is gay. You are expressly making certain things easier which are *absolutely not* supposed to be easier than they are in vanilla. Knowing for 100% certain how much damage you dealt? Honestly, the only thing about the damage indicator which should be remotely contentious is that you know when you're shooting someone offscreen. If you're gonna make a blanket argument about it then I'm simply not going to listen to you.

>Assuming you know anything about your class's range and bullet arc, you know where someone was when they got hit.

Excuse me. I already stated this right in this thread. And before you ask, I'm not going to go cite myself, because making people get my communications properly when I've done plain and clear is a damn waste of time.

>On point three: Dodging, again, is still entirely of your own effort, just as aiming that shot was. That is if you even aimed the shot and didn't just get lucky with a missed rocket.

What? I don't get how this is a relevant point whatsoever.

>And it's god damn easier to make a hit indicator in GG2's source compared to making a plugin for it, so don't give me that "we can't do it properly", no one's just gotten up and done it.

Excuse me while I slap your shit for even considering that "properly" is supposed to mean "easily".

The reason that the damage indicator isn't in vanilla is because it uses a hack to get the damage dealt. It runs a difference between everyone's current and previous health on a frame by frame basis and checks to see if you probably dealt damage this frame. This is buggy as hell. This system is not good for GG2 vanilla. The systems necessary for a proper damage indicator are not in place and they're a pain in the ass to add.

Either way, "you haven't done it yet" is not a valid retort to "this is supposed to be in vanilla yet but we haven't done it yet for reasons, you can use the plugin version of it liberally though".

« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 06:46:38 am by Phantom Brave »
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Re: Clearshot Plugin v1.0
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2013, 11:13:33 am »

Its a moot point, but I completely agree with Wareya
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