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Author Topic: New standard for game setup  (Read 3885 times)

Phantom Brave

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New standard for game setup
« on: September 09, 2012, 01:27:41 pm »

We've been using the same comp setup for a long time, even in spite of mods that cater to comp play. We used to use them, but they fell aside with new updates. We're using the same stuff for everything, 3-5 caps in 10-15 minutes in 4v4 with 5-8 seconds of respawn.

My main thing is respawn waves. Do we want them in comp? I want them in comp. What about you guys? I think they would make everyone finally happy with the spawn timers and get rid of the huge 80%-higher ceiling on what they normally are.

We should also be using plugins that directly enhance the tourney play through bugfixes or server utility, like we used to with chat and map changing mods.

Server host messaging: http://www.ganggarrison.com/forums/index.php?topic=32618.0
Prevent match timer overfill on CP maps: http://www.ganggarrison.com/forums/index.php?topic=32451.0 (you'll need to use a reasonably long match timer along with this...)
Multistab hotfix: http://www.ganggarrison.com/forums/index.php?topic=32386.0 (No reason not to use this)
Respawn waves: http://www.ganggarrison.com/forums/index.php?topic=32264.0
DKotH anti-stall: http://www.ganggarrison.com/forums/index.php?topic=32567.0
Freezetime: http://www.ganggarrison.com/forums/index.php?topic=32709.0
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 09:17:29 pm by Chartreuse »
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trog

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 03:04:26 pm »

I don't understand how respawn waves are comp oriented. Their purpose is to have teammates spawn together and provide opportunities for uncoordinated team members to coordinate. In comp you should be coordinated in the first place. Having random spawn times is also kind of annoying. nvm works differently than tf2
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 03:37:32 pm by trog »
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trog

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2012, 03:28:23 pm »

http://www.ganggarrison.com/forums/index.php?topic=32567.0

pretty much a requirement for comp dkoth
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RebelINS

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2012, 03:45:53 pm »

(Why can I start threads here? Merge this into the brainstorm thread if you have to.)
Can't start threads here so people who want to create "tournament" threads have to pass through a few quality checks first. If you made this post in the brainstorm thread, I probably would have split it anyways, to help draw attention to this thread.

This thread can be a useful resource for both tournament organizers and players, which warrants having a separate thread.

Phantom Brave

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2012, 04:02:52 pm »

Thanks, rebel.

@trog:
Respawn waves are competitively oriented because in situations where people die one after another, they all come back at the same time, which leads to either waiting around for your team (with low spawn times) or having some too-late spawns to deal with stuff (with high ones). Waves make it so that the people who die later aren't out of the match as long as the people who die first, who either suicided (deserve a longer spawn time) or were a pick (and so a detriment to their team). A lot of the argument between 5 through 8 second respawn timing is with how quickly a new spawn can approach what's going on around the base; waves make the timing worthwhile how to do tactical maneuvers like conflict's classic pincer and truefort's cutoff. If someone suicided trying to kill the flag grabber, they get a long spawn time, but if they were lit at the end of a flag fight with someone else on their team dying then they have more of a chance of managing the tactic.

The way this specific implementation of spawn waves works helps tactical maneuver timing itself, rather than just having a (necessary) psychological and random effect like TF2's does.

I didn't include the stall prevention because I'm not how "good" comp dkoth would work, anyway; I haven't seen styx played myself.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 04:04:28 pm by Chartreuse »
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trog

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2012, 04:28:00 pm »

So is the point to punish people who get picked or to make it easier on people who died when their teammate gets picked (will respawn + wave length be greater than 8)?

tbh I haven't played in a while but I don't really remember feeling like I was getting an unfairly long respawn so I don't think a significant reduction in minimum spawn time is necessary. Maybe just enough to make the difference between max and min respawn significant without making max respawn excessively long.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 04:28:32 pm by trog »
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Snare

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2012, 05:07:43 pm »

Spawn waves do make for good competitive tactics, but clutch solo plays make for good footage. I'd rather have players decide for themselves if they want to wait around for their teammates and go in waves or move out solo instead of forcing a tactic on them. Different spawn lengths will just translate to people complaining about an unfair spawn won or lost them the game.

http://www.ganggarrison.com/forums/index.php?topic=32567.0

pretty much a requirement for comp dkoth

This is cool though. Maybe instead of having the timers go down after detecting a stalemate for an extended period of time, the timers always go down while in stalemate? When one team caps their timer just goes x2 faster. Then we could have fixed dkoth match times and no more 2-3 hours matches!

The server message one is awesome too, but there's been cases when the host could only leave their server open and not actually be there. I'd prefer if we'd eventually get a console w/password control. It would put less commitment on the server hosts and more control into the match referees.

trog

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2012, 05:13:04 pm »

The problem with that if the other team is at like 20 seconds and have your point there's no way you'll win since you not only have to retake your point but run all the way to their side and cap their's as well
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Phantom Brave

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2012, 05:54:05 pm »

the decision to lock the timers instead of running both of them was intentional for various reasons, including the one trog brought up
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 05:54:25 pm by Chartreuse »
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Snare

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2012, 06:18:36 pm »

The problem with that if the other team is at like 20 seconds and have your point there's no way you'll win since you not only have to retake your point but run all the way to their side and cap their's as well

Then make sure you're winning for the first 9 minutes and 40 seconds. Regardless of whether you put a general timer or do some other fancy thing to make dkoth matches a fixed game time, the issue will still be there. The same problem could be applied to all the gametypes with fixed game time, after a certain amount of time it just becomes impossible to win in certain situations.

Phantom Brave

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2012, 06:33:51 pm »

There's a difference between practical and technical impossibility. Having both run down and ignore the flow of the match is a death sentence with timing that comes out of the gameplay instead of out of the timers. That's bad. Changing to timing down both when a stalemate is detected is the best tradeoff between bad timing and stalemating, even if it still allows pussyfooting a small advantage to win. I still don't particularly like the idea, not when you're doing best of one match, because it lets a few small victories win the whole round. That's why I built Styx the way it is, though; it's easy to keep the point and equally easy to attack the points between each team at all times. In a way it's more like baby mode 5CP instead of CTF with CPs, but it works better with the "one match per map" mindset that gg2 comp is played with.
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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2012, 07:00:54 pm »

Then have a central timer that ticks down, the key is just a fixed time length for dkoth maps.

It might just be that dkoth is one of those gametypes that's played for fun and not competitively, which is totally fine. It might be just be we haven't found the right map yet, who knows. Till something changes about dkoth though, I'm sticking it with gen in the "gametypes that shouldn't be in competitive play".

CobaltBW

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2012, 07:10:34 pm »

I think all official dkoth maps so far are pretty well-designed, but suffer from dkoth's core mechanics which draw out the match when there's a deadlock in the middle. Tiscooler's plugin has the perfect mentality, and I would like to see it made official.
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Phantom Brave

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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2012, 07:15:05 pm »

@snare:
dkoth isn't supposed to have a fixed time length. It's a homage to CTF. Its maps should be balanced by the same rules.

@blue warrior:
There is no core mechanic that causes a deadlock. Atalia's structure is based on ctf_noir, which is notorious for being a deadlocky map because of having a central chokepoint. Sixties has a similar problem, but the chokepoints are all over the place instead, the path structure is insane and unbearable. Atalia and Sixties are both built around very strong point defense by either team. In atalia, it's the stronger team, and in sixties, it's the earlier one. Atalia is like turbine and sixties is like quake CTF where you need to have your own flag at the base to cap theirs. Styx does away with team strength changing mechanics and tries to be like ctf_conflict.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 07:15:21 pm by Chartreuse »
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Re: New standard for game setup
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2012, 07:38:44 pm »

@snare:
dkoth isn't supposed to have a fixed time length. It's a homage to CTF. Its maps should be balanced by the same rules.

Last I checked there's a fixed time length for CTF. And it's not an issue map balance, it's an issue of time management. You can't play maps in a tournament setting that could possibly last forever if you need anything to get done.
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