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Author Topic: We need a better way to organize competitive play  (Read 7981 times)

Techno Viking

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2011, 07:33:43 pm »

Moving this to fr because fr is fr

this isn't feature requests, it's competitive play discussion...
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RebelINS

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2011, 09:16:10 pm »

I never approved of this thread being moved in here.

NAGN

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2011, 11:12:45 pm »

so you want to create a lobby system within a lobby, because a chatroom "doesn't cut it" for something as simple as balancing teams?

lolwut???
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la granja animale

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2011, 01:30:36 am »

so you want to create a lobby system within a lobby, because a chatroom "doesn't cut it" for something as simple as balancing teams?

lolwut???

we need to go deeper...
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RBY

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2011, 08:55:22 am »

Hey, don't play tennis with this thread.

Also NAGN, have you ever seen the last minute organization in the IRC for a pug or a clan war? No? It's hell. If we could get someone to find a better way/ program something like the lobby this would make it all so much easier and we could actually do competitive play again instead of raging at the spam in the irc.
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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2011, 10:55:33 am »

How exactly is spam in IRC being a problem? Can't you just make your own channel and keep the spammers out of there? There must be something I'm missing because I keep hearing that complaint.

Also, it may not apply to pugs, but the easier solution for clan wars is to not wait until the last frickin' minute to organize this stuff like everyone seems to do. There's at least a week between when wars get declared and played in nearly every case, but everyone seems to wait until the morning of the match before going "oh shit i need to actually see if anyone actually knows they need to come today  :panic: " instead of being organized ahead of time.
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RebelINS

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2011, 11:15:25 am »

Also NAGN, have you ever seen the last minute organization in the IRC for a pug or a clan war? No? It's hell. If we could get someone to find a better way/ program something like the lobby this would make it all so much easier and we could actually do competitive play again instead of raging at the spam in the irc.
On the same token, have you ever been in IRC for a PUG/Clan War/Tournament that has been planned properly beforehand? It's not a problem at all.

In the tourneys that Snare and Wesker hosted, they constantly PM'd participants at least a week in advance and multiple times before the event. When it came down to last minute things in IRC, the matches began 15 minutes tops after the show up time. The only things that needed to be discussed was scratched maps, finding subs if people didn't show up, and teams figuring out strategies. The attendance rate was surprisingly decent, because of the constant PM reminders.

The main problem isn't the medium we're using (IRC), it is how the planning of these events is conducted. The planners procrastinate and wait until the last possible moment to scrape all the details together, and by game-time, over half of the participants don't show up because they weren't constantly reminded. This is what happened to the Winter Tourney, the Spring Tourney, a bunch of PUGs (which doesn't really matter because those are spur of the moment events), and God knows how many clan matches.

Because the IRC for the wars or pugs become a clusterfuck of spam and it's hard to get correct info out of it. It's so difficult to start the war because of this.
First of all, the "clusterfuck of spam" can be contained by use of the voice commands and +m/-m. The point of IRC isn't to convey absolutely all of the correct info to everyone, because it should have already been PM'd or posted in the thread. People who use IRC to organize all the details of a clan war/PUG/tournament are just too lazy to type out posts or PMs that are easy to understand, and straight to the point.

IRC is actually a blessing. It's real-time chat that everyone can use, is hosted almost all the time on Espernet, doesn't require an entirely new program/function/mod, and has a lot of versatility (FYI, +m and -m can be used to mute the spam).
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 11:23:26 am by RebelINS »
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RBY

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2011, 11:30:25 am »

How exactly is spam in IRC being a problem? Can't you just make your own channel and keep the spammers out of there? There must be something I'm missing because I keep hearing that complaint.

In the a private irc or the gg2 irc doesn't matter really. the only ones talking in the gg2 irc are the people who will participate in the war or pug. Needless to say, this also applies to the private channel.

Also, it may not apply to pugs, but the easier solution for clan wars is to not wait until the last frickin' minute to organize this stuff like everyone seems to do. There's at least a week between when wars get declared and played in nearly every case, but everyone seems to wait until the morning of the match before going "oh shit i need to actually see if anyone actually knows they need to come today  :panic: " instead of being organized ahead of time.
Even if we do, some people still ask questions which have been answered before. You tell them, but a minute or so later the message is already gone by all other discussion. We need something clear, where messages don't just disappear.
Also NAGN, have you ever seen the last minute organization in the IRC for a pug or a clan war? No? It's hell. If we could get someone to find a better way/ program something like the lobby this would make it all so much easier and we could actually do competitive play again instead of raging at the spam in the irc.
On the same token, have you ever been in IRC for a PUG/Clan War/Tournament that has been planned properly beforehand? It's not a problem at all.

In the tourneys that Snare and Wesker hosted, they constantly PM'd participants at least a week in advance and multiple times before the event. When it came down to last minute things in IRC, the matches began 15 minutes tops after the show up time. The only things that needed to be discussed was scratched maps, finding subs if people didn't show up, and teams figuring out strategies. The attendance rate was surprisingly decent, because of the constant PM reminders.

The main problem isn't the medium we're using (IRC), it is how the planning of these events is conducted. The planners procrastinate and wait until the last possible moment to scrape all the details together, and by game-time, over half of the participants don't show up because they weren't constantly reminded. This is what happened to the Winter Tourney, the Spring Tourney, a bunch of PUGs (which doesn't really matter because those are spur of the moment events), and God knows how many clan matches.

IRC is actually a blessing. It's real-time chat that everyone can use, is hosted almost all the time on Espernet, doesn't require an entirely new program/function/mod, and has a lot of versatility (FYI, +m and -m can be used to mute the spam).
I've seen a few. But those are very rare lately. I don't know how things went wen Snare or Wesker organised the tournaments, but things seem to be different now. With out smaller playerbase it's also a bit more of a challenge to find subs, and everytime we try this and they join the irc, the questions begin again. It's not the attendance which is the main problem Rebel, it's how active the IRC gets before a war and it's very hard to get correct information out of it. By looking at the TF2lobby, you get all the information needed on sight, instead of constantly asking in the irc.

I'm not saying the IRC is bad, hell, it's useful for most stuff, but lately it doesn't help a lot anymore. People joining in late need to ask every single question over and over again. It would be so much easier if you could actually show them some sort of set up which doesn't disappear because of more text, but stays at the top of the page. All it needs to contain is this:
  • Next map
  • RED team + class per individual
  • Blue Team + class per individual
  • Ready button for each team.

But i guess i'm not really being clear. I head ozoh's working on something anyway. You can leave this unlocked for a while, and I'll try to record the next time someone tries to organize in the IRC.
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RebelINS

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2011, 11:41:03 am »

The only information that should be passed on IRC is scratched maps if you're using that format, giving out the server password (which could be posted in the thread in advance instead), and figuring out when to cap the point when everyone is ready on a transition map. All of the questions should be answered in the thread prior to the event. People joining in late and asking the same questions over and over should be promptly directed to the thread which should answer all of the questions. If the thread does not answer common questions, then that is the organizer's fault for being disorganized.

I never said attendance was the main issue. It is an issue, but it is mostly a subset of organizers being lazy and not planning carefully enough and not sending enough PMs.

The main issue is that people are using IRC incorrectly. Let me put it this way, good organizers will spread out posting all of the relevant information over several days or weeks, and most of the important stuff will get figured out immediately. Bad organizers will condense posting all of the relevant info into about 30 minutes in IRC.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 11:46:12 am by RebelINS »
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RBY

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2011, 12:01:43 pm »

The problem is that what you all just said is how it should go, but not how it goes in reality. in reality, players don't show up because they need to do something else, we need to find replacements and they need to know what to do and what classes, what maps etc.

Even if I always posted every tiny bit of information together in one post at least 4 days at forehand and warn all the members who should play, people still manage to ask the same dumb questions in the irc. When I tell them to actually pay attention to what I previously said regarding pretty much everything I constantly have to repeat myself and find myself interrupted by someone who gives out wrong information because their leader told their members something else. But like I said, it was probably better back in the old tournament days so I'll just need to post some proof if I don't want to come over as ridiculous.
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RebelINS

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2011, 12:17:06 pm »

You don't need to post proof. I believe you in that IRC organization can get stupid at times, I've seen it myself.

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2011, 12:38:58 pm »

I forget who it was that asked like 100000 times for the password when we were organizing a pug after the winter tourney failure one day, but yeah, stuff like that is dumb and people who continue to ask dumb questions need to be reprimanded. The bottom line is that 90% of the problem is people being fucking morons and they need to stop being such.
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RBY

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2011, 12:40:18 pm »

I forget who it was that asked like 100000 times for the password when we were organizing a pug after the winter tourney failure one day, but yeah, stuff like that is dumb and people who continue to ask dumb questions need to be reprimanded. The bottom line is that 90% of the problem is people being fucking morons and they need to stop being such.
Exactly. And one way to prevent them from doing this is a bit of information they need to fucking read at the top of the page.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 12:44:28 pm by RBY »
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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2011, 12:47:50 pm »

Unfortunately they still won't read it. Wherewolf even changed the motd to a copypaste of me saying the password like 50 times and people still asked. What needs to be done is to tell people "If you don't have more reading comprehension than a 2nd grader, you don't get to participate because you're a huge ass hinderance". If I had OP, I would have muted the channel, put in big giant fucking bold text what the password was, left it that way a minute, then unmuted. This is how it went in the feb tourney: if you weren't involved in the current match, you were muted, and you got put back on track if you tried to derail things.

Rebel has it right about PMs and stuff. I had no problem getting 4 players to show up for the Fall tourney both times we were supposed to while basically every other team was MIA. A big part of that is that I was fortunate enough to have 4/5 of my members be responsible, but communication was a big thing for us. The tools are there, but people don't bother to use them.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 12:51:43 pm by [NIGA] Luchadore Chalupa »
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RBY

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Re: We need a better way to organize competitive play
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2011, 12:51:49 pm »

Well, maybe the system I am suggesting might change something? It could change a lot, or at least help to some extent.
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