ctf_2court (a.k.a. Let's make truefort better)

[Waterfall]

For a while now I had intended on making a map that would reflect 2fort more accurately than say, truefort or 2dfort. But since TF2 2fort isn't really known for its great, dynamic gameplay, I thought it'd be better to show you guys what I have so far and instead discuss what we want and don't want in a 2fort demake and go from there. Here's what I have so far:



Here's the walkmask put up against truefort's for comparison:

While this may be a Frankenstein's creatureof sorts in terms of originality (considering the fact that I just played around with the truefort walkmask), I am considering building the walkmask from scratch once all of the key features are set in stone.

Edits:

Things to consider:

If you guys have any ideas on how to remake/improve this map, please post a comment.

[NAGN]

while redrawing the background, would you mind experimenting with some layers (separating, for example, the foreground from the background/different depth layers)?

I don't remember if you're an artist or not, but while I tried to do that it was hell

[RebelINS]

i can help colour

[Waterfall]

while redrawing the background, would you mind experimenting with some layers (separating, for example, the foreground from the background/different depth layers)?

I don't remember if you're an artist or not, but while I tried to do that it was hell

Do you mean for situations like hiding behind crates?

i can help colour

That'd be great. Any thoughts on the actual map?

[Malpracticeisdead]

I don't see the point in not letting people go back up while they're under the bridge.

[Waterfall]

I don't see the point in not letting people go back up while they're under the bridge.

It was a kind of whimsical decision on my part, since I was trying to emulate 2fort the best I could when I first started making changes. The point of it? Umm. I guess it would work to fragment a heated battle taking place in the middle and nudge the tide in either direction. I also see it as a chance for the airblast to shine.

[trog]

ok what i see is truefort with slightly changed terrain, none of the problems really fixed and some more added

imo the big problem with truefort is the runner route. because the map is so large it's important to have areas on the map where a team can push to and have access to all the routes on the map in order to stop players from slipping by easily. other wise every time you push out to cap the intel someone will go behind you and backcap. the runner route on truefort doesn't connect with the main route at all really which makes it pretty much impossible to have a forward hold area.

here's a comparison of the different routes in ctf_conflict and ctf_truefort



you can see in conflict all the routes connect at two points near middle, allowing a forward hold that seals every exit from the enemy side of the map. the "runner route" (red) connects with the main path (purple) in a lot of places as well, while the underground route (green) is more separated but this is balanced out by other factors which i can't really show if i'm trying to make a really simple diagram so you just have to look at the actual wm when deciding whether the amount of separation on a path is warranted.

then you look at truefort and it has an underground route that's actually quite similar to conflict's - which is good - (although you break the connection between the two routes in your map...) but the runner route doesn't touch any other path anywhere except at the intel. the only way to stop someone from abusing the runner path is to stand on the runner path, which means you can't stop anyone using the main path or the underground path. or you can sit right on the intel which is really really boring. this means a defence effort will include most of the team as they thin themselves out trying to cover all the routes, contributing to the lovely truefort stalemate.

anyways yeah just look at how the paths connect and how that creates (or doesn't create) proper places to hold. another thing you can do which is probably even better is take half a map and draw the main routes defenders can come out of and the main routes attackers come in and look at where they intersect and the viability of holding there (number of paths converging in the area, distance from enemy spawn, distance from your spawn, whether all classes can actually reach the spot, ease of moving from a hold to an attack on the intel, etc.). instead of lots of spots that are okay spots you want a couple good spots, to streamline gameplay and provide a sort of checkpoint. a great map to look at for this kind of general route design is orange, it's a big map and it does this pretty well (although not perfectly) so it can give you some ideas.

and finally don't worry about faithfulness to the tf2 map in the wm, leave that for the art. when youre creating the map your first priority should be balance and good map design and all that good stuff.

[Waterfall]

10/10 post. Back to the drawing table

[Phantom Brave]

the problem with tf2's truefort is the bridge that allows scouts to easily escape the main conflict while they get out of spawn,
in gg2 this isn't present because every class is given equal opportunity to use the bridge as a path from the spawn, however the issue lies here:

Runners are given a free pass to the top route, every other class in the game that CAN take it either needs help from a deto/soldier (really hard to coordinate) or are a deto/soldier and spend health to take it. Do you know how useless a soldier is fighting people who just spawned when they only have three rockets - spending one on the jump? They won't be there before the enemy scout, that's for sure. Deto's useless for combat.

So if you want to keep your health at the start of the match, runner's the only choice that gives fast access to their intel route. Every single other class is funneled into the lobby, where they're likely going to be attacked from two sides, or forced to hold from pushing because of someone camping the dropdown from right outside the spawn. Runners can just jump up this, if they're good enough, and if we move the crate to make it slightly easier, it would make it sensible to make it impossible to doublejump up off the bridge roof. This is what my favorite design would be. A slightly hard doublejump instead of a free pass above the enemy's spawn. Combine this with making passing the courtyard more dangerous and you have a fixed truefort... Okay, maybe make the [intel room <-> courtyard] path a little shorter to make up for it. But not much.


Generally, you want to make CTF maps where the following mindsets are balanced team vs team:
1) Chase the enemy flag carrier
2) Protect our flag
3) Retake our base
4) Attack the enemy flag
This is why conflict is so good. Chasing the enemy flag carrier is easy, but so is attacking the flag. There's only one part of the map that denies any of these if you zone it too hard, and even that is usually more trivial to get past than breaking a sentry that's in the enemy base.

PS: TF2 CTF maps suck because they don't think about any of this. They usually try to design their maps like CP maps, thinking about chokes, open areas, and flanks instead of routes as a whole and tactical advantages on them.

[Phantom Brave]

Here's my take on making a profort:

Goals:
- Retain core map layout and details
- Fix issues ranted about in above post
- Redesign intel room to make frontal assault more often plausible (I'm still not happy with it, someone please step up and fix it up while keeping the design idea :[)

[Machidro]

A longer jump or forcing a trick jump != balancing the upper route. I agree with trog, the problems are inherent in the map design, I seriously doubt twitching is going to fix it.

For any scout who can make your skilljump, you actually made it easier to jello, apply that statement tenfold if scouts can still battlement jump. You added increased defenses to the upper route and intel room, and made it impossible to use a sentry gun to effectively defend the intel.

As a wallmask, it also has several major aesthetic issues, including arbitrarily changing wall thickness and randomly strewn and designed crates.

someone please step up and fix it up while keeping the design idea

It's Mythmaker's task to rebalance his own version. if you want your version fixed, go do it yourself, asking others to do the work for you is lazy.

[Agh]

I think truefort would be a lot more balanced if you added a vertical path in these two places:

For A you add a ledge like on the other side of the courtyard, for B you move the crate and lower the exit above it. This would improve the map in two ways: For one normal classes will be able to intercept jello runners. Secondly normal classes aren't funneled quite as bad anymore as they now have a new attack path.

@the OP: I kinda like the sewer changes because it's truer to the original and it wouldn't negatively affect the balance of the map.

[NAGN]

while redrawing the background, would you mind experimenting with some layers (separating, for example, the foreground from the background/different depth layers)?

I don't remember if you're an artist or not, but while I tried to do that it was hell

Do you mean for situations like hiding behind crates?

I mean like separating the background from the foreground, and then the backgrounds from that background
(parallax scrolling)

[Waterfall]

A longer jump or forcing a trick jump != balancing the upper route. I agree with trog, the problems are inherent in the map design, I seriously doubt twitching is going to fix it.

In this case, "balancing the upper route" would mean making significant changes to the functionality of the bridge, and I'm a bit hesitant on doing that because this kills the 2fort feel. I think subtle changes (in this case, Wareya's idea to make the bridge jump harder) are really the best we can do to complicate a Jello Runner's trip without making radical changes to the map.

For any scout who can make your skilljump, you actually made it easier to jello, apply that statement tenfold if scouts can still battlement jump. You added increased defenses to the upper route and intel room, and made it impossible to use a sentry gun to effectively defend the intel.

This I agree with, the intel room seems a bit too congested with the walls coming in from the ceiling and that barrel/crate next to the desk. While making autoguns less effective in the intel room is usually a good thing, Wareya's version would make it harder for slower classes to land a potshot or two on a Jello Runner making his escape.

As a wallmask, it also has several major aesthetic issues, including arbitrarily changing wall thickness and randomly strewn and designed crates.

We can deal with this later; you make the background after the walkmask for a reason, right?

someone please step up and fix it up while keeping the design idea

It's Mythmaker's task to rebalance his own version. if you want your version fixed, go do it yourself, asking others to do the work for you is lazy.

You're being a bit caustic here. It's ultimately my map, and it's up to Wareya how much or how little he wants to contribute.

I think truefort would be a lot more balanced if you added a vertical path in these two places:
For A you add a ledge like on the other side of the courtyard, for B you move the crate and lower the exit above it. This would improve the map in two ways: For one normal classes will be able to intercept jello runners. Secondly normal classes aren't funneled quite as bad anymore as they now have a new attack path.

@the OP: I kinda like the sewer changes because it's truer to the original and it wouldn't negatively affect the balance of the map.

I like A, do you think anything should be done about the ledge right outside the spawn/the silo steps?

I see where you're coming from with B, but it would also give the capping team the opportunity to escort the intel runner even more closely, right?

I mean like separating the background from the foreground, and then the backgrounds from that background
(parallax scrolling)

That sounds really interesting, maybe I'll give it a chance

[Smokey Joe]

I have a few gripes with ctf in general, so maybe I'll illustrate some suggestions for ctf_truefart