Sniper OP

[Orpheon]

I think we should stop caring so much about whether or not something can be modded around. We don't make sniper shoot projectiles because people make aimbots, or take away invisibility because people spyhack. If that's seriously the only thing stopping us from implementing that system (aside from having to actually code it) then I don't see why not.

^

This argument was used to bring down the "map foreground" request too.

[Psychopath]

I think we should stop caring so much about whether or not something can be modded around. We don't make sniper shoot projectiles because people make aimbots, or take away invisibility because people spyhack. If that's seriously the only thing stopping us from implementing that system (aside from having to actually code it) then I don't see why not.

How about this, do you like small upsides for small downsides?

Imagine if a weapon were implemented that had these stats:
+15% damage
-10% fire rate

It'd be as uninteresting as a wet sponge. If that same weapon had compounded tradeoffs, it becomes more appealing because there's more being traded in order to get something bigger.

[RebelINS]

Individual tradeoffs (risk-reward) are fine for balance, but I'm more worried about its niche in the overall metagame. 75 damage undodgeable hitscan shots reward campers heavily. It might be balanced, but it directly affects the flow of the game, ie. it's not as fun to play.

My original idea was built around the OP 2.0 rifleman, which was very fun to play. Maybe add a faster 55-65 damage charged shot ramp to make scoping in worth something, and so you can still go for two shots on 120 hp classes. And add a short buffer after unscoping before you can fire again, so you can't do the cheap scope-check unscope-shoot strategy. You could always add a mobility nerf while scoped later.

An ammo bar for the rifleman would add a similar element of risk-reward. Except instead of weighing mobility hindrances vs higher damage and increased range (the mobility hindrances are often negligible because you're so far away from enemies that they can't really capitalize), you're weighing which shots to take, and how long to hold scope for a better shot. If a sniper wants to sit and camp scoped in, they will only deplete their ammo reserves while being capped at 65 damage. It encourages more aggressive and mobile play.

The problem I have with the Rifleman, despite the class actually being sort of balanced in this version, is that his niche is polarized. He's extremely good at long range, because of the charged shot ramp capping at 75. Being able to see and hit people from a full screen away is already a bonus in and of itself; being able to wait a long time for max charge makes a campy design even more campy.

[♫Sani Sani Disco♫]

I still think we should just make it so the player has to charge the shots instead of letting the game do it for them.  We could even let them move at full speed and only enter the crouch animation during a charge.

It's simple, when the mouse is held down and the sniper is scoping, the charge initiates. Adding damage to the shots is the same as it is now, but maybe faster or slower. Hell, it could even go down if the devs want to be fancy with it. When the mouse is released, which can be detected in the step event of the weapon unless you know of a more efficient place to put that, the sniper releases his shot.

That one mod I stopped working on was basically built around this system because nobody else did it at the time, but when these new mods came out they kinda killed my motivation.

[trog]

How is that any different from now? Unless people getting tired of holding m1 will make them want to charge less or something.

If you added an ammo meter which was drained from when charging yeah, but you could do the same with "automatic" charging.

imo we should just reduce the max charge time to something like 1-1.5 seconds and reduce the max damage accordingly.

[♫Sani Sani Disco♫]

-Sniping isn't easy mode anymore because the snipers actually have to process information instead of point and click
-Free movement when scoped encourages snipers to an extent
-We can make it so after the charged damage peaks it falls after a certain amount of time for the sake of gameplay, tradition and logic be damned

[♫Sani Sani Disco♫]

If nothing else if feels more refined than the current system.

[trog]

-doesn't make sense, instead of scoping when you feel like camping, you now scope and start holding m1! where is the extra processing of information happening? maybe when they have to learn the new control scheme
-um okay sure but then there's no downside to staying scoped 24/7
-you can do that with the current system

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against this but I have no idea what problem you're trying to solve.

[♫Sani Sani Disco♫]

We could do all that with the current system. The one I proposed seems cooler and more natural. That's a huge factor.

The system I proposed also allows more room for balance than just damage changes or a complete overhaul- it's flexible, I suppose one could say.

[Smokey Joe]

Have we actually agreed to what the problem is yet?

[RebelINS]

I've said that the class' niche is too polarized.

[Vein]

The thing that Sani described with the scoping when holding m1 and release m1 to shoot and unscope is how I have my mouse set up for when I play Rifleman right now.

Not staying scoped all the time allows me to move alot faster and just clicking the shot lets me quickscope with almost no slow down in movement.


It does take some getting use to but I feel that I am able to be alot faster and aggressive like that.

Of course, I can still scope and unscope without shooting whenever I want right now which I do to just get a look at whats ahead.

[trog]

how the shit

[Dusty]

Out of curiosity, has anyone thought of having damage ramp up/fall off depending on the distance to the target?

[Phantom Brave]

that is a terrible idea