Winter Tournament - Map Thread

[trog]

no cp_rail
ctf_dirtbowl

>:C


trog disappoint he is disappoint and can't do nothin bout it

[]GS[ Airman]

Sorry, can't do anything about it at this point. Took majority pick from leaders and needed to move on.

Rail was actually right after I think docking but was just barely beaten out. Protoman not voting influenced that.

[Wherewolf]

hi people secretly don't like the map pool but won't say anything apparently
so remove dirtbowl 1st off

[]GS[ Airman]

I had 6 votes including myself for ctf.

Defaults, Noir, and Deco were unanimous, dirtbowl and zvector were almost unanimous. If I'm making the executive decision to remove dirtbowl, what would I replace it with of Tin, Citadel, or Beavercreek?

[Wherewolf]

you wouldn't

[Vein]

no cp_rail
ctf_dirtbowl

>:C


trog disappoint he is disappoint and can't do nothin bout it

Careful.  He sounds like might start trogging if things don't go his way on this.

[RebelINS]

ctf_dirtbowl is shitty for 4v4s. Every team requires a runner to grab the intel, and a constructor to stop runners from grabbing your intel (aka camping). Any attempt to try and be cute with your team composition or positioning gets punished severely with runner backcaps that are almost impossible to stop once it is outside your base (keep in mind that while it is easy to plop down an autogun to defend a choke from the enemy resetting the intel, it in turn over commits your defense to an entirely separate path). This leaves 2 spots for other classes, and healer is non-negotiable, so really 1 class. It could be either overweight or rocketman, and overweight+healer beats rocketman+healer every time.

The optimal team is:   and any attempt at another setup is going to suck. Replace   with   , and you're going to get meatshielded, run out of ammo, and get out-dps'd by overweight+runner. Replace   with any other support, and you're going to get back capped or it will force you into bad defensive positions. For example, if you replace constructor with rocketman, you can easily find your push out of position to defend a backcap, which therefore relegates your runner to full-time defense. In the meantime, their runner can always choose to fallback from any offensive position to flank your push. If you replace   with anything, and you're going to be hard-pressed to get the intel out on offense, and you're going to get fucked if you're forced to chase opposing runners.

The only more effective team setup is one that is adaptive, switching out the   for   depending on each team's overall position. But from as far as I can tell, no team is experienced enough to pull off something this ballsy (seeing as though they're all draft teams).

This should be enough for anyone to veto ctf_dirtbowl from 4v4 competitive play. Overall, the map isn't very fun to play with small teams, because it's pretty much ctf_conflict size, except with way more twists and turns and forks in the middle of the map, which makes backcapping more prominent and 4 on 4 engagements less so.

[[Royal Gay Penguin Nachos Ibarra Gordita Agave] LC]

I voted for dirtbowl as my last choice only because the remaining options sucked even bigger balls. 

Tin has a billion random chokepoints and tunnels that really clog stuff up and zvector has numerous well-documented problems(being locked down easily etc.). It's been a while since I played Citadel, but my previous experiences with it says it's a map that the runner just makes a complete joke out of. So yeah, I voted for dirtbowl, but there were no other viable choices given in the map pool.

[Wherewolf]

Were there any cp or arena maps you didn't approve of either?

[[Royal Gay Penguin Nachos Ibarra Gordita Agave] LC]

Were there any cp or arena maps you didn't approve of either?

Coldfront is agonizingly long for 4v4. It takes a long time to get from the spawn to the last point even as Runner. Other classes are significantly worse. I can't really see this working too well.  Eureka seems like it might be a bit long and I really don't like the design of the middle point, but, unlike coldfront, I have not actually played on Eureka so I can't give a good assessment.

[]GS[ Airman]

ctf_dirtbowl is shitty for 4v4s. Every team requires a runner to grab the intel, and a constructor to stop runners from grabbing your intel (aka camping). Any attempt to try and be cute with your team composition or positioning gets punished severely with runner backcaps that are almost impossible to stop once it is outside your base (keep in mind that while it is easy to plop down an autogun to defend a choke from the enemy resetting the intel, it in turn over commits your defense to an entirely separate path). This leaves 2 spots for other classes, and healer is non-negotiable, so really 1 class. It could be either overweight or rocketman, and overweight+healer beats rocketman+healer every time.

The optimal team is:   and any attempt at another setup is going to suck. Replace   with   , and you're going to get meatshielded, run out of ammo, and get out-dps'd by overweight+runner. Replace   with any other support, and you're going to get back capped or it will force you into bad defensive positions. For example, if you replace constructor with rocketman, you can easily find your push out of position to defend a backcap, which therefore relegates your runner to full-time defense. In the meantime, their runner can always choose to fallback from any offensive position to flank your push. If you replace   with anything, and you're going to be hard-pressed to get the intel out on offense, and you're going to get fucked if you're forced to chase opposing runners.

The only more effective team setup is one that is adaptive, switching out the   for   depending on each team's overall position. But from as far as I can tell, no team is experienced enough to pull off something this ballsy (seeing as though they're all draft teams).

This should be enough for anyone to veto ctf_dirtbowl from 4v4 competitive play. Overall, the map isn't very fun to play with small teams, because it's pretty much ctf_conflict size, except with way more twists and turns and forks in the middle of the map, which makes backcapping more prominent and 4 on 4 engagements less so.

I've had PB said he would edit it if it made it in.

But alright. Bye-bye dirtbowl.

[Lady Z3r05t4r - Honorary Life Insurance]

Were there any cp or arena maps you didn't approve of either?

Coldfront is agonizingly long for 4v4. It takes a long time to get from the spawn to the last point even as Runner. Other classes are significantly worse. I can't really see this working too well.  Eureka seems like it might be a bit long and I really don't like the design of the middle point, but, unlike coldfront, I have not actually played on Eureka so I can't give a good assessment.

Hm. Coldfront is just 120 pixels longer. But okay. That can be felt.

As I said Coldfront is more like a 5v5 or 6v6 map. And I don't think its really that tooooo long.
Well. I don't want to whine around now, but I feel between  and  . Kinda like, nao i mad.

Additionally I asked several guys and stuff, most of them said it was fine. Wherewolf stated I follow the TF2 variant quite good, Rebel meaned it would look fine to him so far (in IRC of course.). So test the map with more people. As I said, you kinda need a proper defense and offensive team to control the situation. Same goes for public play. And update the Map already. Take the latest out of the thread, it's side switched now and stuff.

:/

EDIT:

Also note:
Most of those CP maps (All of them actually. The five ones) are about 600-800 pixels long.
Except CP_rail (1000 pixel length. Minus about 100 for both sides you get 900. Still.).

[Wherewolf]

I've been hosting Coldfront lately and it's a decent map in 6v6, but I don't see it going well in 4v4. The last point will almost certainyl require an uber to capture, and it feels easy to force a stalemate by camping in spawn, by the top spawn door.

Mid is also fairly chokepointy, not a huge deal. Perhaps the roof could be extended to make it possible to use that as a very small top route.

cp_rail may not be too much smaller pixel wise, but the number of jumps/amount of time needed to move across the map is a lot lower, making it feel shorter even if it technically isn't.

Coldfront isn't a bad map, it's just large enough that it would require forward spawns to make it winnable imo without a sizable gap between team skill. Mainly because of the last point being easy to defend coupled with distances.

[trog]

replace coldfront with rail?

[DSky]

Will it be to easy if we make coldfront a 3 cp map?