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Author Topic: Agh's mapping lessons  (Read 4582 times)
Conan
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 08:26:27 pm »

When's the next?

Don't tell me its friday.
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Blockland
Agh
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 08:48:35 pm »

Thanks for the positive feedback guys Cheesy it really motivates me to keep going!
Needs more pictures, I can't go that long on reading without them.
I'll use pictures when they are necessary.
When's the next?

Don't tell me its friday.
Ok, I won't tell you.
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AcidLead
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 10:41:17 pm »

I've always wondered why truefort doesn't have even one spawn back by the intel. You CAN spawn there in 2fort, if there are 6-8 spawnpoints in the normal spawn it would be rare enough its impact wouldn't be dependable for poor defenders, and it would change up the gameplay a bit, infrequently sucking away a rapid expendable combatant or pleasing a dirty camper.
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Psychopath
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2010, 09:51:47 pm »

You CAN spawn there in 2fort
No you can't; prove me wrong.
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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2010, 01:04:44 am »

You CAN spawn there in 2fort
No you can't; prove me wrong.
Not TF2 2fort but TFC 2fort.

Actually, fuck, I'm not even sure about that.

But why not even a small chance?
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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2010, 03:27:19 pm »

You CAN spawn there in 2fort
No you can't; prove me wrong.
Not TF2 2fort but TFC 2fort.

Actually, fuck, I'm not even sure about that.

But why not even a small chance?
Because it's physically impossible to spawn there without editing TF2's or TFC's 2fort. Why make it so you can spawn right next to the intel when the action is usually between the two courtyards?
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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2010, 03:34:47 pm »

You CAN spawn there in 2fort
No you can't; prove me wrong.
Not TF2 2fort but TFC 2fort.

Actually, fuck, I'm not even sure about that.

But why not even a small chance?
Because it's physically impossible to spawn there without editing TF2's or TFC's 2fort. Why make it so you can spawn right next to the intel when the action is usually between the two courtyards?
Okay fine, you're right, not even the original TF map spawns you down there.

But there are really no maps that abuse the ability to spawn in multiple places. I guess it's bad technique or something. Bleah.
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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2010, 03:39:41 pm »

You CAN spawn there in 2fort
No you can't; prove me wrong.
Not TF2 2fort but TFC 2fort.

Actually, fuck, I'm not even sure about that.

But why not even a small chance?
Because it's physically impossible to spawn there without editing TF2's or TFC's 2fort. Why make it so you can spawn right next to the intel when the action is usually between the two courtyards?
Okay fine, you're right, not even the original TF map spawns you down there.

But there are really no maps that abuse the ability to spawn in multiple places. I guess it's bad technique or something. Bleah.
How annoyed would you be to be a heavy and spawn in the basement and your medic spawns where you wanted to be: right at the entrance to stop an offensive of the enemy team. No, instead you get to walk you fat ass up some stairs and get there just in time to see who killed who.
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AcidLead
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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2010, 03:41:09 pm »

You CAN spawn there in 2fort
No you can't; prove me wrong.
Not TF2 2fort but TFC 2fort.

Actually, fuck, I'm not even sure about that.

But why not even a small chance?
Because it's physically impossible to spawn there without editing TF2's or TFC's 2fort. Why make it so you can spawn right next to the intel when the action is usually between the two courtyards?
Okay fine, you're right, not even the original TF map spawns you down there.

But there are really no maps that abuse the ability to spawn in multiple places. I guess it's bad technique or something. Bleah.
How annoyed would you be to be a heavy and spawn in the basement and your medic spawns where you wanted to be: right at the entrance to stop an offensive of the enemy team. No, instead you get to walk you fat ass up some stairs and get there just in time to see who killed who.
don't we want to annoy people to avoid stalemates

I thought that was the whole purpose of CP mode
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Conan
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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2010, 05:54:30 pm »

ITS FRIDAY

WHERE ARE TUTORIAL?
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Blockland
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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2010, 07:08:31 pm »

LESSON #2
Path balancing

This is a very important aspect of map making but also very easy to explain and understand.
Imagine you are standing in the middle of ctf_orange. Now think about which path do you want to choose. Do you climb the tower and try to surprise the enemy from above. Or do you take the short direct path, but with the danger of running into more enemies than you can handle.

That's what I call good path balancing, each path to the objective (in this case the intel) has its own advantages and disadvantages. Every time you get to the middle you have to think about which direction to choose and it's not an easy decision.
Bad path balancing is when there's no real decision or the decision doesn't matter. Think about the top route to the intel in classicwell, it gets used almost never because it's too long and you have to go past the main spawn exit. And that's why it's almost never worth it. You might as well cut this part out of the map and nobody would notice.

On the opposite side of the spectrum is when a path is just too good to not use. In heenok2 the scout path is so extremely OP because you can avoid almost all enemies. The only thing you have to worry about is other runners and the people camping the intel room (read: one lonely engie).

What you want to avoid too is having all the paths be too samey. If all the options the player has to make are essentially the same, then the decision which route to take is not interesting. One map that is partially guilty of this is waterway. ...Actually on second thought, this is a good technique to scatter the players as most people will choose one path randomly. So it's more of a style thing rather than good or bad.


So let's talk about what makes a particular path attractive or unattractive. The two most important aspects are length and congestion.
- With length I mean how long it takes you to traverse said path and NOT the distance in pixels. This is an important distinction, because a short looking path can take relatively long to travel through, think of those boxes in the conflict sewers.
- With congestion I mean how busy that path is, how likely you are to encounter an enemy. The shortest path is usually where the most players are.
Now the next few factors are more minor and the majority of the players won't consider them when playing.
- Number of Options, by which I mean how easily can the player switch to another path. Example: In ctf_dirtbowl taking the normal path has the advantage that you can quickly drop down to the sewers, but in the sewers you can't easily go back to the upper path.
- Vision: How likely it is to get spotted by the enemies/to see the enemy in advance. A flank is a lot more effective if the enemy doesn't see you coming.
- Class specific advantages: Say a long spammy hallway attracts soldiers, a twisted path with lots of boxes and cover makes pyros happy. Be careful that you don't cater a path too much to a certain class or you'll create boring one-sided gameplay.
- If you want to overanalyze it, then you can look at all kinds of tactical advantages like cover, height advantage, feasibility to retreat, etc.

To summarize: Path balancing is about giving each path up- and downsides. It makes your map deeper and more interesting to play. This knowledge also helps you (to some extent) to predict how the map will be played.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 05:37:48 pm by [GA]Agh » Logged
RebelINS
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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2010, 09:24:32 pm »

I wouldn't actually consider the scout path on ctf_truefort to be easy. There's a lot of congestion in the area right after the spawn by the crate. If there's a runner or rocketman there defending, the runner has to run past the spawn twice and has to pass through 3 vital chokepoints (The area before the crate near the edge, the area on top of the crate, and the area above the spawn). This is a dangerous path for runners who make poorly timed pushes because of the level of congestion. Even worse is that the defender can hit his medcab easily and make it much harder to get past.

The best runner flanks taking the top path on this map are all timing based; you time it when the enemy is respawning, when they are far enough that they cannot respond, or when they are busy engaging another front. I guess my point is that the safety and ease of the path depends more on its location relative to other important areas, than the actual length. You put it best when describing congestion. That area after the spawn is easily congested because it is where 90% of players go when they decide to attack.
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AcidLead
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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2010, 10:53:20 am »

I already ran into this problem for my map. That and uncappable intel nooks, but yeah.
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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2010, 02:37:04 pm »

I'll replace it with a clearer example.
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Conan
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« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2010, 08:10:52 pm »

Nice second tutorial, but it turns out I already incorperated that in my next map.

It involves a top route, which is moderately hard to traverse, and two bottom routes, each which involve a ton of jumping, although they end up closer to the CP's needed to be capped.
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Good thing you put the copyright notice on there because I'm sure tons of people would want to steal that and sell it for a profit. 
Blockland
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