Super Smash Brothers [ITT Everyone hates the fan]

[Smokey Joe]

I think SSB64 wins on stage selection, maybe its single player content (tied with Melee for me), everything else I would give to Melee though.

[AcidLead]

I think SSB64 wins on stage selection, maybe its single player content (tied with Melee for me), everything else I would give to Melee though.

hey, when you hit people on ssb64, they die

in ssb64, you hit 60%, you're fucked; 100%, what the fuck are you smoking

in ssbm, you hit 100%, you better back off; 150-200% is lethal range

ssbb, 150% is usually survivable and 300% can be worked around on light hits

however;

you take ages to finish any kind of move on ssb64, and most jumps are a joke

ssbm, some people got hops and some don't, move speed has greater variance, emphasis on variance

ssbb, everyone practically floats and the moves pour out pretty unstoppably button mash or not

furthermore;

these are all opinions because I remember how it feels to play the games; throwing metal mario off the crystal stage for laughs, attaining cuddly bear and still winning the match, oh look diddy kong has the smash ball again NOW I'LL SHOW YOU AAAAA whoops whatever.

also items have been op from the getgo; imho, the smash ball is really the only good one as it flies the fuck around and isn't really any more or less effective for/on anyone

summary;

ssb64; playing was getting your character to be the least retarded, and gravity was the true enemy, don't even get me started on how weak upward launch was

ssbm; a deliberate tactical battle where one false move dooms you to an unbreakable fuckton of pain, shield shield shield, do not get airborne but don't hang out on the ground either

ssbb; easy mode battles where you try to stomp the other guy before he stomps you more firstly, nuff said

[RebelINS]

64 was the only game where every character has awesome touch of death combos rewarding skill.

[Smokey Joe]

also items have been op from the getgo; imho, the smash ball is really the only good one as it flies the fuck around and isn't really any more or less effective for/on anyone

smash ball is the worst

many of the effects take little to no skill to use, the camera obstructs other player's views momentarily for the sake of "cinematically" doing a close-up on the final smash character, and it's completely unbalanced across every character, both in terms of the effects themselves and actually grabbing final smash.

Imo, well-designed items are stuff like the bumper, star rod, super scope, and even items likes the cracker launcher and the hammer. All of them are good examples of items that are fun to use but also strategically deep (relatively speaking) and not plagued by random elements (also relatively speaking).

64 was the only game where every character has awesome touch of death combos rewarding skill.

Samus?

[RebelINS]

samus has touch of death combos, but they're obviously more situational. involves platforms and such. even then, down air juggles x2-3 into a back air is still pretty deadly (although it is nothing compared to almost everyone else).

besides, touch of death doesn't always imply 0-death; it can mean one hit into a combo into a guaranteed edge guard scenario.

[Smokey Joe]

I see. Not aware of most of them, although I guess I've never seen SSB64 played at top level before.


...Okay, haha. Just watched some SSB videos. Now I see what you mean.

Isai(Purple Fox) vs Trigger(Green Fox)

[Past]

At first I was like Five lives?

There's like no landing lagg for like any attack from what I can tell, so aerial combos seem a lot easier.

[Smokey Joe]

The biggest killer is how long players are stunned after getting slammed, I think. It stacks significantly with the right section of Hyrule Castle, but it makes combos more potent just in the air as well.

[AcidLead]

bumper

ok, I'll play. how is launching someone off the left of the screen so far they die via the bumper different than NOW I'LL SHOW YOU AAAAA and launching them off the top

star rod, super scope

launching sideways broken, mobile charge attack super broken. the star rod is only a little less powerful than the ray gun for the same purpose, and comes with a nifty finisher, or you can just pretend to retreat, sneak behind and fuck them off the screen and probably even catch it for re-use. super scope can turn any match into being annoyingly paralyzed in place until it runs out of ammo like a long-range fan, not to mention the charge attack that you can dodge shit while prepping

cracker launcher

ranged attack, parabolic, it's like having a fuckton of crap to throw, but stronger and you can aim exactly at your enemy while backing away and jumping. instant incongruously high damage with no penalty if you ask me, oh and it's heavy when you chuck it to boot

the hammer

how is this not random, it has A CHANCE TO BACKFIRE, plus it beats every attack with automatic kills were you even trying here come on

granted I have all of these items on with the sole exception of the cracker launcher and love them to death but honestly if you want to argue against a weapon that lets someone instantly kill someone else, at least pick the one that doesn't wait in one spot for the winner to pick it up

I think almost all final smashes would have been better if they didn't provide invulnerability for you as well as death for your enemies, maybe a few could suppress launching for you but only for a very few cases, honestly I think that would have made them at least tolerable to the community

phew time for the "you know nothing: fact, fact, fact, you lose" rebuttal, which I'm totally open to and will accept

[Meower]

I wish that in the next Smash Bros they'd only release a handful of throwable items (like bob-ombs and land mines), get rid of everything assist and pokèball related and remove the option to throw weapons at your enemies, swinging with a stronger attack should be enough

[RebelINS]

I wish that in the next Smash Bros they'd only release a handful of throwable items (like bob-ombs and land mines), get rid of everything assist and pokèball related and remove the option to throw weapons at your enemies, swinging with a stronger attack should be enough

or they could make it more chaotic and fun by adding even more crazy items. smash bros is a party game, and a very good one at that.

the only things messed up about brawl was the crazy floatiness, and the really fast recovery on any attack (lack of hitstun). the lack of hitstun was a major problem because it meant that whiff punishes were really miniscule, especially with how long most characters can live. This hurt the flow of the game, because it altered the risk-reward of a lot of matchups. For example, metaknight shits on almost everyone's chest because he can just keep pressuring you with a barrage of high priority, high range attacks without really having to combo much; he can just alternate between dash grab and short hop aerials, and occasionally get you with a tech chase for a pseudo combo.

Consider the "holy trinity" of fighting games.
Attack [combos and punishes]
Block [Dodging can be considered a subset of spacing which is a combination of attack/block]
Throw

Attacking beats throws, throws beat blocks, and blocks beat attacks. Smash 64 had a really attack heavy gameplay because blocks were near useless (except for the Yoshi egg parry trick) as the block stun on most attacks was ridiculous. However, it was still really fun, because any hit or punish could lead to big, technical combos, which rewards the player's skill.

Melee being developed as a decent competitive tournament game sort of happened by accident. They just happened to hit on a good balance between attack <> throw <> block <> dodge. Blocking was a lot more useful because blockstun was a lot less severe. You could actually shield grab to punish bad attacks, and of course grabs can just beat shielding straight up (unless your grab sucks, and/or the opponent has a fast jab like Shiek or Fox). Directional influence when you're getting knocked back was really good for preventing some combos. Attacking in general felt fair, because it could get you big combos if you're good enough, and at the same time, could get you punished for playing too aggressive. Wavedashing actually added more to the dodging aspect and helped spacing for a lot of characters.

If anything, I want the developers to follow these fundamental fighting game mechanics more closely, and make it more balanced through universal mechanics. Ditch L-Cancel (follows their principle towards making the game less difficult to play), but make certain moves have less landing lag for comboability. Make the general hitstun somewhere in between 64 and Melee, but at the same time to prevent touch of death combos, add in a burst system for combo escapes. Bring back wavedash as an actual technique (not a glitch), and make the disparity between each character's distances a lot less. In general, each of your options should feel meaningful, and should contribute to a larger strategic game between players.

If they add that, I don't give a fuck what characters, items, stages, and other game modes they add, because I know that Sora/Nintendo will do a fine job in that regard. I'm only worried about fighting mechanics, because clearly they don't have much experience with that. Hopefully, with three games under their belt, they should have enough internal experience to come up with an even better 4th game.

[Smokey Joe]

bumper

ok, I'll play. how is launching someone off the left of the screen so far they die via the bumper different than NOW I'LL SHOW YOU AAAAA and launching them off the top

Are you comparing the bumper to Super Sonic?

Alright. With Sonic, you're invincible, you move extremely fast all across the screen, one touch is a guaranteed kill at above 50%, and you can slam into multiple opponents and not just one.

Bumpers are just simple area restriction tools. You touch it, you get bounced back a bit, and it barely does any damage. It's just there for the player to use to his advantage, not seal a guaranteed win.

star rod, super scope

launching sideways broken, mobile charge attack super broken. the star rod is only a little less powerful than the ray gun for the same purpose, and comes with a nifty finisher, or you can just pretend to retreat, sneak behind and fuck them off the screen and probably even catch it for re-use. super scope can turn any match into being annoyingly paralyzed in place until it runs out of ammo like a long-range fan, not to mention the charge attack that you can dodge shit while prepping

Mmm, given on the super scope.

My main point was that there are many different ways to use either item; e.g. strategic depth.

cracker launcher

ranged attack, parabolic, it's like having a fuckton of crap to throw, but stronger and you can aim exactly at your enemy while backing away and jumping. instant incongruously high damage with no penalty if you ask me, oh and it's heavy when you chuck it to boot

same as above, but given. I think I'm biased because I'm often Mario and so I have a reflector.

the hammer

how is this not random, it has A CHANCE TO BACKFIRE, plus it beats every attack with automatic kills were you even trying here come on

granted I have all of these items on with the sole exception of the cracker launcher and love them to death but honestly if you want to argue against a weapon that lets someone instantly kill someone else, at least pick the one that doesn't wait in one spot for the winner to pick it up

If you were to consider SSB64, only its appearance is random (same with every other item), and even afterwards the chance is pretty rare. It's a strong item, I'm not doubting that, but it comes with an exploitable drawback of having fairly slow movement speed and being unable to double jump (or use any other attack, for that matter). With that in mind, it's possible to stay alive if you have good weapon to ward him off, some kind of tool to exploit his inability to double jump, or just outrunning him, etc. It's strong, but not unbeatable, which I think was the intended design.

I think almost all final smashes would have been better if they didn't provide invulnerability for you as well as death for your enemies, maybe a few could suppress launching for you but only for a very few cases, honestly I think that would have made them at least tolerable to the community

phew time for the "you know nothing: fact, fact, fact, you lose" rebuttal, which I'm totally open to and will accept

nah, I think we see things differently on what an item is supposed to bring to the table. It's hard to explain exactly; I just don't like items that take control out of the player's hands, and smash ball is practically something that does that. Stuff like the cracker launcher and hammer can at least be countered, and at least with the cracker launcher there's a difference between a good player using it and a bad player.

[Meower]

I wish that in the next Smash Bros they'd only release a handful of throwable items (like bob-ombs and land mines), get rid of everything assist and pokèball related and remove the option to throw weapons at your enemies, swinging with a stronger attack should be enough

stuff

Wait, first you say you want it to be more chaotic then you claim it should be developed like a fair fighter? What's so fair of a pokèball spawning next to an almost dead player and him making a comeback because of a gimmicky item?

[RebelINS]

because you can turn them off.

[Meower]

That doesn't sound like a valid excuse, berberu
The only way you can analyze smash bros mechanics is noticing them when items are turned off already, so what'd be the point then?